'The Catholic church is absolutely hoaching with gay priests and bishops'

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'The Catholic church is absolutely hoaching with gay priests and bishops'

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1John5918
Redigeret: mar 26, 2018, 12:39 am

Gay clergy will live in torment until the Catholic church drops this hypocritical oath (Guardian)

A sensitive reflection on the dilemmas facing gay priests and bishops, of whom there are many within the Catholic Church, as the quote I have used as the title of this thread colourfully proclaims in Scotttish and northern English dialect.

2eschator83
mar 26, 2018, 3:23 pm

They should be expelled for sodomy.

3John5918
Redigeret: mar 26, 2018, 3:29 pm

>2 eschator83:

Presumably many of them are celibate, as most Catholic priests are expected to be (with the exception of Eastern Rite Catholic priests and the former married Anglican priests who were re-ordained as Catholic priests). As celibates they are not practising any form of physical sexual relationship, including "sodomy". But celibate or otherwise, they still face many dilemmas.

4cpg
mar 26, 2018, 3:48 pm

>1 John5918:

Does the author think that "lest" means "unless"?

5davidgn
mar 26, 2018, 3:51 pm

>4 cpg: Also wonder what he means here by his use of "ultramontane."

6rolandperkins
Redigeret: mar 26, 2018, 4:01 pm

"Ultramontane" (5) means "beyond the mountains".
In an Italian context it would mean "beyond the Alps" - - "Northern or Western European".

"Lest" (4): I donʻt see it in the post!?

7davidgn
Redigeret: mar 26, 2018, 4:06 pm

>6 rolandperkins: Yes, I know. And more aptly, (neo)-ultramontanism is the accordance of the broadest authority and infallibility to the Pope and to all Papal pronouncements. But what what does this have to do with reactionary Scottish Catholics under Pope Francis?

ETA: I suppose if the term is being used purely geographically from an Italian perspective it is at least intelligible.

8lilithcat
mar 26, 2018, 4:00 pm

>6 rolandperkins:

"Lest" is here: They have conducted a reign of terror among priests they suspect of being gay by threatening to “out” them lest they recant and repent. (Emphasis mine, for clarity)

9rolandperkins
Redigeret: mar 26, 2018, 4:08 pm

"Lest" is Here:. . ." (7)

Thanks, lilithcat. But I still don't see it in 1-6!
And there is no #8 on my screen. Am I getting the same screen as you folks?

10cpg
mar 26, 2018, 4:13 pm

>9 rolandperkins:

"[T]he author" is the author of the article linked in #1. It is not poster #1.

11lilithcat
mar 26, 2018, 4:15 pm

>9 rolandperkins:

>4 cpg: was referring to the author of the article, and I thought you meant you didn't see it there.

12vpfluke
mar 26, 2018, 4:39 pm

From the way I see it, the author of the article uses "ultramontane" as a way of saying that the gay tormenters think of themselves as occupying the highest point of Catholic ethics. The author's use of "lest" rather than "unless" is suggestive of the subjunctive rather than the indicative and shows the author does not appove of what the ultramontists are fighting about in a round about way.

13cpg
Redigeret: mar 26, 2018, 5:23 pm

>12 vpfluke:

Roundabout, indeed. It doesn't seem to be a usage recognized by the OED.

ETA: I think the more likely explanation is that the author is a sloppy writer. Two of the three Twitter comments on this article are asking him what oath he's talking about.

14John5918
Redigeret: mar 27, 2018, 3:36 am

Ultramontanism was, as others have said, a particular movement within the Catholic Church. I think nowadays it is often associated with the "conservative" fringe of the Church. I won't attempt to comment on the word "lest" - I was looking at the broad intent of the article rather than the details. It probably is written sloppily, and like others I am not clear to what "oath" it is referring.

For me its importance is that it highlights some of the problems faced by gay clergy in the Catholic Church, and hopefully starts conversations.

15hf22
mar 27, 2018, 3:34 am

Its worth noting this now late Cardinal wasn't disciplined for being same sex attracted, or even mainly for being actively homosexual, but rather for abusing his power over people to gain sexual favours.

The Church's sex abuse shame is not so well banished that examples like this can be whitewashed, so as to make ideological points against Church teaching.

16Guanhumara
mar 31, 2018, 9:33 pm

>13 cpg: The vow of celibacy perhaps? Although it is rather insulting to imply that homosexual priests struggle more with continence than their heterosexual counterparts.

17John5918
Redigeret: apr 2, 2018, 11:57 am

>16 Guanhumara: to imply that homosexual priests struggle more with continence than their heterosexual counterparts

I didn't pick that up as the implication. Just about any priest who takes a vow of celibacy struggles with it. But a heterosexual priest doesn't have the additional struggle of having his sexuality described as "objectively disordered". In addition to being celibate, a homosexual priest has to pretend that he is heterosexual, and deny a huge part of himself. It is changing slowly and there are more and more gay priests and bishops who are open about their sexuality, at least within their own circles, but I would say they still face huge challenges over and above what the average heterosexual priest faces.

18eschator83
jun 22, 2018, 8:48 pm

The euphemism "gay" for a sodomist (sodomite) is perhaps the most absurd and outrageous of all radically correct speech. It's right up there with the phrase capitalist cronyism, intending to imply that cronyism isn't a problem in education, politics, or religion.
To link celibacy and gay is not just irrational, it's deceit, a contradiction in terms.

19John5918
Redigeret: jun 23, 2018, 12:50 am

>18 eschator83:

"Sodomy", if you choose to use that word, is an action, not a sexual orientation, and thus a "sodomite" (or -ist) is one who performs that action. It is not confined to gay people - heterosexual couples can and do practice anal sex and thus, in your terms, are "sodomites". On the other hand, many homosexual priests are celibate and thus do not practice "sodomy". Hence I'm not really sure of the relevance of your post.

My apologies - I see I am repeating what I said in >3 John5918:, but I think it bears repeating since you apparently missed that point. "Sodomy" is a sexual activity which can be practiced by heterosexual and homosexual people; it is not a sexual orientation. "Gay" refers to a sexual orientation, not to a sexual activity. People who are actually (not nominally) celibate do not practice sexual activities therefore the term "sodomy" or "sodomite" cannot accurately be attributed to them whether they are homosexual or heterosexual.

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