Austenathon 2011: Persuasion (Spoiler Thread)

Here we can discuss Persuasion to our hearts' content.

Non-Spoiler Thread: http://www.librarything.com/topic/126213

Austenathon Main Thread

Links to all of the Austenathon pages can be found on the 75ers group wiki page.

Thanks for setting this up. I am halfway through Part 1, and I am loving it already. :)

It might be her best book, though sometimes I love Pride and Prejudice more.

Like you, I flip between Persuasion and P&P as my favorite. I'm going to get started a little late--have two other books with deadlines in progress, but I'm looking forward to this re-read.

This is going to be a re-read for me and it only just edges out Pride and Prejudice for my favourite Austen :-) I suspect that it will be a re-read followed by a re-watch of the adaptation with Amanda Root and Ciaran Hines. Love that one!

I liked the Amanda Root adaptation a lot, too. This was a re-read for me of the annotated version. P & P remains my favorite Austen, but this is a strong second.

I love this book! Can't wait to start reading it :)

I've read it now, and I'm most of the way through the supporting material at the back of the Norton Critical Edition. Anne is distinctive among Austen heroines in her solitude and in her coming from deliberation into passion rather than from passion into deliberation.

For the moment, as with all the others, this is my favorite of the six. I think in the end, though, I will not have a favorite. I will have preferences aligned with certain criteria, for example Northanger Abbey has youthful vigor that is written away in the adult editing of the other books, and Pride and Prejudice is rich in cast, dialogue, and staging.

Robert

Okay, I'm going to throw a question out here . . .

I was supposed to read Persuasion for a class at university (titled something like the Romantic Period in English Literature). At the last minute, the prof who planned the course had to pull out and someone else stepped in. He was one of my favourite profs I had all of university, and we had a fabulous time delving into the deepest corners of Mansfield Park. However, he refused to teach Persuasion because he thought it was awful. Several of us tried to get him to teach it anyway, and show us why it was awful, but he didn't. I thought this prof was brilliant, but I don't agree with him on everything--for example, he hated Virginia Woolf, who is probably my favourite writer ever. So I have no idea why he thought Persuasion so sub-standard. Does anyone have an idea where he's coming from? I'd still like to know. I haven't read it for a while, but I think it might be my third favourite Austen (number three on a pretty fabulous list!).

Huh. I don't know. I'm just throwing this out there, but it may be the most overtly romantic plotline of all the books, and it seems to me that some people are uncomfortable with that aspect of Austen's work.

Fascinating that your instructor really dove into Mansfield Park (the most contentious of Austen's works) but avoided Persuasion. Most Janeites of my acquaintance have a very high opinion of Persuasion. Perhaps his concerns were based around the fact that the novel was published post-humously and thus Austen did not edit it as much as her other novels (with the exception of Northanger, which was published at the same time).

There are certainly some issues with Persuasion, stemming as Micky notes from inadequate editing / rewriting, but I feel that the character of Anne lifts the novel well over those shortcomings. I honestly can't imagine how anyone could call it awful---even if it does commit the heinous sin of being "romantic". :)

One of the contemporary or mid 19th century articles in the Norton Critical Edition listed the numerous shortcomings of the work after saying that it was a good work; I would cite that if it were at hand. There are some abrupt comings and goings and some events that seem gratuitous, like Mr. Elliot's crossing Anne's path in Lime (I was good with that but can see that some might think it an unnecessary complication). Besides being more romantic that other Austen novels, it has a heroine who is different from the other heroines; in the other novels the heroines have to learn prudence while in this one Anne has to temper her prudence with what is romantic in her. Only the professor knows for sure.

Robert

Only the professor knows for sure.

Indeed! And I hesitated to even pose the question, thinking exactly that. Not really a fair question that I asked. But still, I'm so curious . . . this is an Austen novel that readers either love, or feel indifferent toward. But no one seems to dislike it, or hate it (as with Mansfield Park, or even Northanger Abbey). And to purposefully not teach it . . . I haven't heard a criticism to support it. I was just wondering if anyone could shine some light on that . . . maybe something I'd missed. I'm wondering if there was some little bee in the bonnet--you know, a personal pet peeve. Though he DID say that it wasn't the quality that Jane Austen had otherwise shown. Hmmm. Does this hold up, or was this some sort of personal grievance? Because I personally suspect that on second reading, I will like this novel even more than I did initially.

I'd call it a bit harsh to put a novel down because its author DIED before she could finish it. Yes, the subplots are messy as they stand because she ran out of time to rewrite them and tidy up her loose ends. But Anne is the heart of the novel and its strength, and there's no problem with it at that level.

I know many people who place Persuasion as their first or second Austen favourite. And as you say, I don't know anyone who dislikes it.

Hmm. Yes, the plot doesn't stand up to a ton of scrutiny (the source and timing of the revelation about our cad, for example), but I can blithely ignore six ridiculous plot holes before or after breakfast, particularly if it's a book as otherwise perfect as Persuasion.

#14 I'm inclined to agree with you on the personal grievance front, but as you say, only he can really know the answer to that. Out of interest, after you read it, did you ever think about asking him for his specific reasons? I know it would have crossed my mind, but I don't think I'd want to know them, loving it as I do! I'd hate for someone to point out an unavoidable truth that I'd previously missed and risk destroying my perception of it...

#15 "I'd call it a bit harsh to put a novel down because its author DIED before she could finish it." ;o)

#16 Yep, completely agree!

Well, I love Persuasion. It has a joint prize with Pride and Prejudice (which it just pips to the post in my order of preference) for the one I've read the most (I couldn't possibly tell you how many times I've read them, but they're both in double figures)...

....however, this time round, I've been trying to put my finger on just why I love it, Anne and Captain Wentworth so much, because yes, it's definitely the most romantic, but it's also the least obviously witty (which is the thing I really prize the most in Austen's work) and we see much less of Anne Elliot's character than we do of her other heroines. Yes, we're let in on her emotions, but we don't hear her speaking very much - she's a much quieter heroine, less spirited and harder to pin down. We know that she's widely liked and a bit of a favourite of most of the "right thinking" characters and this must be the way we judge her. I wonder if this, in itself, isn't quite clever - because she's more of a blank canvas, we read more of ourselves into her.

I've also always found Mr Elliot a bit of a strain and the weak part of the book - not so much for the way he comes through Lyme (I can live with that), but for the way his dastardly story unfolds through Mrs Smith. It doesn't quite work for me - he's basically there to add an obstacle into the path of true love.

This leaves me wondering if the main reason I like the book so much is how gooey it makes me!

I say this all having only got half way through my reread and not having read it for a year, so I reserve the right to change my mind completely! ;o)

#5&6 I love that adaptation too, (although my family are all united in hating that ridiculously and unnecessary final scene on the boat). Did you know that some of the changes they make to the ending were in her original version? I will have to finish my reread to remember which bits, but it's all to do with Captain Wentworth asking about Kellynch - I have a tendency to read both versions every other time I read it, which confuses it a little in my mind...

The adaptation I recommend everyone avoids LIKE THE PLAGUE is the much more recent ITV version. Truly dreadful and largely missing the point...

The Walter Eliot subplot is the part that didn't get "fixed" - Austen put what strength she had into rewriting the ending and making sure she got that right.

Speaking of which:

The adaptation I recommend everyone avoids LIKE THE PLAGUE is the much more recent ITV version. Truly dreadful and largely missing the point...

Is that the one that obviously felt it had done something immensely clever by substituting the cut ending?

"Is that the one that obviously felt it had done something immensely clever by substituting the cut ending?" - do you know, I can't remember now - I've mostly blocked it from my memory (bar the fact that I can't forget that the last scene is Captain Wentworth introducing his new bride to their new home - Kellynch Hall... I just remember groaning constantly the whole way through (obviously, I had to see the wreck through to the end though!)

And I don't remember that, so maybe there are two versions to be avoided?

We should probably all stick to Amanda Root and Ciarán Hinds.

"We should probably all stick to Amanda Root and Ciarán Hinds" - very sensible ;o)

...having re-read a snippet of the earlier ending again last night though, I think you're right, they did do exactly that in the ITV version...

I finished Chapter 11 last night. I'm enjoying my re-read. I'm finding most of the annotations unnecessary but some are interesting, especially about the geography of Lyme.

I read the Annotated one, too, Roni, and also thought a lot of the annotations were unnecessary - the reader would understand the meaning from the context. But there were many annotations that were helpful, including ones in the latter part of the book that comment on plot twists and subsequent critical commentary on them.

>#21 Perhaps I was so horrified by the use of the cut ending, the Kellynch bit didn't register.

>17 flissp: To go back to your complaint of how Mr. Elliot's role as the villain comes through Mrs. Smith, it is a bit of a deus ex machina, but at the same time, there's a very similar scene in Sense and Sensibility when Colonel Brandon reveals Willoughby's character to Elinor.

In terms of the much more subdued wit in this novel, I totally agree. However, I will admit to thoroughly enjoying absolutely ever reference to Sir Walter's obsession with appearances, particularly his own. When Admiral Croft mentions all the mirrors he had moved out of his room, I crack up every time.

#25 "When Admiral Croft mentions all the mirrors he had moved out of his room, I crack up every time." - oh me too! I also love the affectionate, gentle humour in the portrayal of the Crofts.

...and I completely agree re Sense and Sensibility - in fact I find it even more awkward, to be honest, but then, for me, S&S is probably her weakest. Don't get me wrong, I'm very fond of it - there are some great bits and I love the relationship between the sisters and the wonderfully awful Lucy Steele - I just think it's more up and down than the others. The thing that I find odd (in myself), is that, despite the clunkiness of Miss Smith vs Mr Elliot etc, Persuasion is still my favourite...

I've just got to the concert where Captain Wentworth gets jealous about Mr Elliot and I still haven't managed to put my finger on why I love this one so much - I may have to read it all over again when I'm finished ;o)

But the point of both these delayed revelations is that the heroine has already figured out for herself that something is wrong; the full story confirms her own good judgement. We can say the same for Fanny in Mansfield Park. This is in contrast to Pride And Prejudice and Emma - and in a different way, Northanger Abbey - where the heroine getting a rude shock is a necessary part of the growing-up process. You can divide Austen's heroines, and her novels' purpose, along these lines. (In S&S, Marianne gets the shock.)

>27 lyzard: Very good point. I think by this point in Austen's canon, we all know to be suspicious of the good-looking gentleman who seems too good to be true. :)

I finally finished this over the holiday, and I enjoyed it quite a bit. After reading all the books this year, I have to say that Pride and Prejudice is my favorite.

For me Persuasion is a strong second to Pride and Prejudice. The one part I struggle with is Mrs. Smith "holding back" on letting Anne know the truth about Mr. Elliot. It doesn't entirely ring true, particularly given the open-hearted way Anne has treated Mrs. Smith, which would seem to help define the friendship and put some obligation on Mrs. Smith. I can accept Mrs. Smith's explanation that she thought the truth wouldn't be appropriate if Anne had her heart set on him, but it's a bit of a flaw for me.

Yeee-ah. "I wasn't going to tell you he was an indebted cad when I thought you loved him and were going to marry him, but now...." That's the biggest plot hole for me.

How are people's reads going? I'd love to hear. What do you think of the book, or what's jumping out at you this time?

One of the things I noticed more this around is how much more of the time period creeps into this novel compared to the others. In the other novels, you would be hard-pressed to realized that the Napoleonic Wars were occuring at the time they were published. Here, however, it's a major plot point and the ending is very interesting in terms of its commentary on war.

I finally finished Persuasion last night. I liked it, but I didn't love it. I decided that Northanger Abbey was my favorite, probably because I loved Phyllis Whitney, Victoria Holt, and similar authors so much back in the 1970s.

I was surprised by how much I enjoyed Northanger Abbey. I never really liked the only movie I've seen; the book was SO much better! Fast and funny, tongue-in-cheek, just so Austen-ally witty. Still pecking away at Persuasion; probably shan't finish it this month.

I actually think I may have been a little burned out on Austen by the end of the year. That's why I haven't signed up for the Steinbeckathon this coming year. I may decide to read one or two of them, but I am not committing to the challenge!

The edition I read this time included the deleted chapter that someone mentioned earlier. Instead of the scene with Captain Wentworth overhearing Anne's conversation and writing her the letter - one of the best scenes in all of Austen I think - there's a much shorter reunion scene. Admiral Croft gets Captain Wentworth to ask Anne if it's true she's going to marry Mr. Elliot and so be moving into Kellynch Hall. She tells him she isn't and they quickly come to an understanding. The end. So glad Austen decided to rewrite the ending!

I think this is my favourite Austen (though Pride and Prejudice is up there, too. And Northanger Abbey) For me, this is the sweetest of the Austens on the romance front; our heroine gives up the love of her life for duty, but wins him back after a long separation, with patience and constancy. I loved the Crofts and the Musgroves, but I suppose the warmth of their domestic lives were shown so as to contrast it with the Elliots'.

I felt that the 'loose ends' were given a more extensive treatment than usual (and, unusually, in the present tense), which I rather liked.

I read it wondering if it was a reflection on Jane Austen's situation. She had to give up a proposal of marriage since there was not enough 'fortune' on either side - maybe this is how she wished it could have turned out for her?

> 30, 31 : Re plot holes; this time through, I found most, if not all, of the books had a ... rough corner that hadn't quite been sanded down. For instance, Marianne falling in love with Colonel Brandon. Or when Elizabeth says "I believe I must date it from seeing the grounds at Pemberly", it half rings true, and it is disappointing to think that that might be a factor in my heroine's falling in love with Darcy. Or Henry running away with Maria when he had begun to fall in love with Fanny. Or Edmund falling in love with Fanny. Or ...
But I like the way it's done in Northanger Abbey

I think Austen did that on purpose; there's always a little touch of sour or bitter in her sweet.