October Group Read: The Woman in White - The First Epoch

For discussion about the First Epoch.

I am almost finished the First Epoch. I have to admit I was really struggling with the beginning of this book. But when the narration was taken over by the lawyer, Vincent Gilmore the story picked up for me and seemed easier to read. I am now reading from Marian's diary and it seems to that the pace is quicker and flowing quite smoothly now.

I just finished the First Epoch. DeltaQueen, I agree that the narration is much easier to read after Hartright's part ends. A few observations so far:

1) The first sentence really grabbed me.
This is the story of what a Woman's patience can endure, and what a Man's resolution can achieve.
I wonder which Man and Woman Collins refers to. Also, there's an element of sexism there that I really don't like! A woman enduring and a man achieving. Blech.

2) I tried reading The Mysteries of Udolpho, pub. 1794, this year with limited success (got about half way through), but I can see how Collins's style was partially derived from the gothic novel. Especially Hartright's section, with the flowery language and overwrought emotions, and the way suspense and suspicion are created really reminded me of Udolpho.

3) I like the changing voices to tell the story. Collins says in his preface that The Woman in White is the first book to attempt this. If that's true he started a trend because there are many books written even today that use this approach.

Thje sexism doesn't really bother me, I know it was a different time and place.

I think you nailed what was bothering me about the beginning of the book. Hartright's section did use overly flowery language and overwrought emotions. When the lawyer started up, I was able to relax and absorb the story.

I read Fingersmith a year ago and, as another reader pointed out, she was obviously influenced by The Woman in White.

I'm just marking the thread, haven't yet finished the first epoch, so I won't read any more of it until I do. So far I was very surprised to see that this is where Sarah Waters must have got many of her ideas for Fingersmith. I wonder if any of the twists will be the same.

I've just finished the first part.
I agree with previous comments that Hartright's style is flowery, I read The Mysteries of Udolpho fairly recently, and as japaul22 says, The Woman in White follows that gothic style closely. We have the classic elements - dark nights, fair maiden, evil in the form of her husband to be, a woman mistaken for a ghost.
I like this style, each of the three characters brings something else to the tale, not just their side of the story, but also their emotions.

As for the sexism, I must admit, I thought "oh no, another pathetic female" when I first read about Miss Fairlie, but she does have the strength to stand up to her "duty", even if she shouldn't have to.

I am really looking forward to the second chunk, I think Wilkie Collins has set the scene well, lots of mystery and possibility.

Fingersmith is in my TBR pile. Maybe I will move it to the top after reading The Woman in White because of the connection.

Do, it is one of my favourite books!

Loved, loved Fingersmith.
I don't know anything about Wilkie Collins and whether he will continue to show himself to be sexist. I'm hoping dear sister Marian who hates women and all their faults, I'm assuming because she is everything a man could desire except beautiful, will have her eyes opened. There must be some reason he writes this Eve Arden, masculine man's best friend kind of character. I'll hope for the best there. It's obvious the reader is supposed to fear a marriage between Laura Fairlie and Percival Glyde. At the time the book was written do you think there was a group of people who saw her infatuation with the artist and her reluctance to marry as symptoms of her childishness that should be overcome? Or were readers not that gullible even then?

That's a good question, Joyce, especially as Laura is rather childlike, and Sir Percival appears to be presenting himself in his best light. As readers we only have The Woman in White's warning and our sympathy for Walter to put us against this marriage. In the 1860's when this was originally published, the concept of arranged marriages was still quite widely accepted. At the very least, young women were considered in need of parental guidence in marriage matters. Perhaps there were some readers who did think her infatuation with Walter was unseemly.

I liked how Percival was shown to be so personable and well liked by everyone - except the dog. Perhaps just in case the reader didn't get the dog warning Percival's lawyer was shown to be fat and just as friendly, which the Fairlie's lawyer said was the worst sort of person to oppose.

I haven't gotten into Gilmore's section yet. Don't worry, nobody has hit me with spoilers. I expected sexism and have been reading 18th century Latino literature lately. As for that century, Collins doesn't seem that bad but I did want to slap Marian around when we first meet her. At least her following actions aren't as sexist. Marian's character, focusing on her depiction as having a beautiful female body but the head and mannerisms of a man, might make an interesting term paper.

Joyce, I didn't see it as a question of Laura being shown as childish for falling for the artist. I did, though, feel we were to interpret it as an unsuitable match from her family's point of view. Clearly, Hartwell wants Percival Glyde to be as blackhearted as the dream implies but if this were real life instead of a gothic novel, I'd be very cautious about jumping to conclusions. After all, sometimes people actually are insane. Sometimes people actually do need to be hospitalized/put in an asylum. Since this is a gothic though, I'm assuming the readers then and the readers now are sure Glyde is truly awful.

That said, I also feel Laura is depicted as childish, especially since her beauty and appearance is different from the woman in white's mainly because of experience. Anne is careworn and tragic, while Laura appears unblemished from all emotions but joy. Highly romanticized description! After all, Laura has lost a mother and a father. She must have been touched by sorrow.

P.S. Okay, now I'm through Gilmore's section. The dog! ROFL!!! It couldn't have been more obvious if someone had but a flame orange post it flag when Percival first enters with the phrase "boo hiss" written on it.

You know the old joke how many Jewish mothers does it take to screw in a light bulb? (None, don't worry about me, I'll be fine just sitting here in the dark.) The passive-aggressive gambit that Laura uses to get Sir Percival to break off the engagement - complete submission with the caution that she will be miserable and unloving if she marries, but she will do so if he wishes - would work only if he cared at all about her state of mind. Go ahead and sit in the dark, go ahead and be miserable, it's no skin off his nose. I've read that thieves and dishonorable people love honor because it makes the honorable so easy to cheat. Laura has been raised to believe that if she is a perfect as she can make herself: perfectly beautiful, perfectly submissive, perfectly unassertive, perfectly truthful - good things will happen to her. In dealing with a dishonorable person, honor does you no good. He wants her money, he doesn't care a fig about her honor except that it makes it easy for him to take it from her. Oh so it seems at the end of the first epoch.

I love how Marian is being sucked into the fat Count's orbit almost against her will. I've always told my daughter to beware of charming men, how does one resist the irresistible?

Speaking of Marian, and I've only just finished Hartright's narrative, I found myself wondering if her motive for encouraging Walter to leave wasn't a bit selfish. One boy, two girls and he shows a clear preference to Miss Fairlie. Of course social status would have ultimately mattered if it came to marriage, but it wasn't at that point.

Yes, I wondered at the time about Marian's feelings towards Walter. A young woman, living a fairly sheltered life, suddenly comes in close, daily contact with a young man. They appear to get along very well, it's hard to imagine that she didn't have certain feelings towards him. On the other hand, I think Walter was quite blind when it came to Marian, he just didn't seem to be able to see anyone in that light but Laura.

I thought that one reason Collins might have made such a big deal of how Marian looks and acts like a man was so that there was no chance of a love triangle developing or confusing the story. Since she does look or act womanly, there's no chance that Walter will fall for her instead of Laura.

I think you're on to something there, japaul22. Since the ideal woman was beautiful and demure the ideal reader would have found Marian below recognition as a spouse. I wonder how many readers at the time were able to get beyond those stereotypes and see Marian as the worthy woman she was, and as Fosco found her to be.

@16 & 17??? I'm not sure how I feel. I too sensed Marian was interested in Walter, but she got over him rather quickly. She never even fully expressed the idea. She acts as though she expects no man to fall for her, and therefore it's easy for her to sing the praises of the single life. After all, that's all she has in store for her because no one would marry a poor, ugly upper class woman. (I'm inferring that from Collins. Not stating that as a fact.) Perhaps her inevitable singlehood was part of Collin's point in describing her as having a face like a man? Or perhaps he was putting in a subliminal message, men don't like intelligent women. Except of course Fosco, who at the point I'm at seems to like her as an adversary; the same way one would appreciate a cunning chess opponent.

I thought the same, that Marian was falling for Walter, giving up when she saw he was interested in her younger, prettier and less interesting (for me) sister. She seems to vicariously live their relationship.

I think we have to bear in mind the customs of the times. Marian has grown up with the knowledge that she was destined for spinsterhood, without a dowry or looks to overcome that fact, she knew that there would be no offers for her. So although she may have had an interest in Walter, being a pragmatic person, she probably never allowed herself to do more than dream a little about a future she could never have.

I started late, but I'm enjoying The Woman in White immensely. I really need to read more Victorian literature. It satisfies my inner teen-age girl, all that angst and unrequited love that must remain unspoken.

If the book had been written today, well, Walter would have initially fallen for Laura, but would have eventually realized that Marian was the one he really loves. They would have married and done wonderfully together after some misunderstandings and Marian discovered how to use tweezers. I can see Marian sailing off to South America with her man, can't you?

Mr Fairlie irks. I would be slamming doors aplenty for the sheer annoyance of it, if I had to live under his roof.

You're so right Ridgeway Girl! Suddenly Marion (with nicely shaped brows and a new hairstyle) would transform into Sandra Bullock, and she and Walter would sail off into the sunset.

Well, it would make for a shorter book!

I just finished reading Fingersmith. Thanks for the suggestion everyone! What a fun book, and yes, very similar to The Woman in White in many ways. It was fun to read it having just read Collins's book.

Forget the piano! Marian and Laura should've been learning to play the clarinet and piccolo. That would've finished Mr. Fairlie off sooner. ;)

I'm midway the second epoch, and cannot stop reading! The florid, wordy style works because despite the tension, you have to proceed slowly -- no reading quickly to the end of the page for satisfaction here. There's no choice but to continue at the pace Collins has set for the reader.